I'll make one final comment as food for thought, and then I'll leave you to your fun and games.
For the last 15 months the establishment made preposterous claims about how October 7 could have happened. It was a surprise. It was a miscalculation. Iran hacked and disabled the cameras by the border (as if that enough wouldn't have warranted an emergency response). It was an intelligence failure. It was a perfect storm of perfectly understandable, well-intentioned mistakes and bad fortune. You bought all the BS and mocked those who didn't.
Now it's come out that they knew there was a very strong likelihood that a major attack with hostage-taking was imminent. And they didn't take decisive action to prevent it. So they were lying for the last 15 months, they knew they were lying for the last 15 months, and you should eat a lot of humble pie for believing the BS.
But what do you do instead? You double down yet again! You believe the current, even more preposterous BS. They didn't know with CERTAINTY that this major attack and hostage-taking was going to happen. Maybe it was something more benign. Even so, they had a very good reason not to prevent it. Some vital intelligence source would have been compromised if they prevented the October 7 massacre. No matter that there was plenty of warnings for months before October 7, and especially in the days leading up to October 7, that would have justified decisive action and covered for any "vital intelligence source". No matter that the slaughter was being broadcast online in real time for hours and hours while the IDF was AWOL.
The criminals and liars (the "experts") now claim that they had a very plausible, justifiable reason not to prevent October 7 (the greater good), and you buy that BS too. You double down on trusting them, double down on mocking people like me, and reserve your sanctimonious outrage only for haredim.
You keep doubling down, you would do it again, and you still think you have the intellectual and moral high ground.
At some point you share responsibility for the many thousands of slave soldiers who were maimed and killed for nothing.
This is your thread, so I'll leave you with that, and you can have the last word. I don't expect it will demonstrate any humility or ability to be introspective, but hopefully any neutral observers will evaluate the merits of both sides and choose wisely.
"For the last 15 months the establishment made preposterous claims about how October 7 could have happened."
No they didn't. They weren't preposterous. Still aren't
"Now it's come out that they knew there was a very strong likelihood that a major attack with hostage-taking was imminent. "
No it hasn't. Read the article again.
"You keep doubling down, you would do it again, and you still think you have the intellectual and moral high ground."
I don't claim any high ground. I do think my understanding of events is closer to what actually happened than yours is. And I think you're seeing all sorts of dragons which aren't there. Zeh ha-kol.
"hopefully any neutral observers will evaluate the merits of both sides and choose wisely."
There's nothing intellectual about bending over backwards to argue that the same regime that kidnapped and trafficked Yemenite babies from hospitals and told the parents they were dead, and conducted horrific Mengele-like medical experiments on Moroccan babies, and murdered the rabbi who exposed it, and denied it all for decades, and continues to cover up most of it, and made sure no one was ever brought to justice to this very day -- all of which is a "conspiracy" that involved numerous people -- wouldn't collaborate on other atrocities against their own people, for whatever purposes suit them.
There's nothing intellectual about demanding impossible levels of "evidence" for this, and mocking people who believe this, even though it explains everything that happened far more smoothly than all the gymnastics you engage in.
There's nothing intellectual about denying this as even a reasonable possibility, with silly arguments that a specific smoke-filled room needs to be provided (as if even THAT would convince you).
Meanwhile, upwards of 20,000 idealistic Jewish fighters were maimed and killed for nothing, and anyone with half a brain warned that would happen from day one (including yours truly), and still you explain it all away as a series of reasonable calculations, mistakes that intellectuals need to explain away, and misfortune.
There's nothing intellectual about using your intelligence to outsmart yourself, deny reality staring you in the face, and continue being a sucker, while pretending to be the smart one in the room.
Everyone who can reasonably be assumed to have known about October 7 and who did not take appropriate actions should have been rounded up and arrested immediately. Instead they were all allowed to lead Jews into death traps for nothing, while directing the public to unleash their anger and frustration at yeshiva students instead. And all the "intellectuals" took the bait.
"There's nothing intellectual about bending over backwards to argue that the same regime that kidnapped and trafficked Yemenite babies from hospitals and told the parents they were dead, and conducted horrific Mengele-like medical experiments on Moroccan babies, and murdered the rabbi who exposed it, and denied it all for decades, and continues to cover up most of it, and made sure no one was ever brought to justice to this very day -- all of which is a "conspiracy" that involved numerous people -- wouldn't collaborate on other atrocities against their own people, for whatever purposes suit them."
It's not the 'same regime.' And the allegations about the experiments were revealed *in a Knesset committee.*
"last year the government of Benjamin Netanyahu decided to open up most of the archives of the public inquiries and put them online.
Netanyahu said this marked a new era of transparency and would "right an historic wrong".
Last week it led to shocking revelations in a Knesset committee about medical experiments on Yemenite children. Testimony given under oath at one of the earlier inquiries revealed that four undernourished babies died after being given an experimental protein injection, and that many children died as a result of medical negligence."
Of course it's the same regime. They cover for each other. Even your cherry-picked source notes that only "most" of the archives were opened. Not the really juicy stuff. No one was implicated or brought to justice.
The few small crumbs of truth they are forced to let out after decades of it essentially being public knowledge only underscore how much they are really hiding and how monstrous they are. But, by all means, keep believing their every lie and rationalization.
A far as I can tell, he doesn't really have an actual theory. Putting words in scare-quotes isn't an argument.
It's similar to the covid bio-weapon conspiracy theories, which he also mentions in that post. My sense is that the same group of people who believe that Covid was intentionally designed and deliberately released, also believe that Oct 7th was an inside job, etc. Depending on their age, 9-11 and JFK too. It's basically taking Q-anon and being megayer it. I'm a sheeple, I guess.
The "theory", which is actually a historical fact that we have no reason to believe is unchanged today, is that the faux-Jewish state of Israel is run by Hebrew-speaking Nazis and other assorted gangsters who collaborate with our external enemies to enslave and destroy us spiritually and physically. Mock it if it makes you feel better about yourself and your lifetime of harboring the wrong beliefs. You were dead wrong about Covid, too, and should really be more humble and contemplative. Some people learn the hard way, and some people never learn at all. 80% died during the plague of darkness.
You realize that trying to convince frum families to only have 5 kids isn't anything like coordinating a pogrom with mass rape and all, right? One really isn't evidence of the other.
The hubris is all over threads like these, the faux-intellectual peasants bending over backwards to defend their oppressors and mocking those who challenge the official narratives of corrupt, pathological liars. No amount of "data" or "evidence" will ever convince them, because they are really just playing a primitive ego-driven game, the same tired game they always play, while acting as if their endless skepticism no matter what makes them the smart, responsible one in the room.
Funny how that skepticism is never directed inward, and they never get tired of being wrong, no matter the consequences.
Chananya Weissman is a reductio ad absurdum of a Zionist. Every time his version of Zionism is shown to have no relation to reality, he comes out with an even more delirium-brained version. It's very sad, and people in online Kahanist circles should really reflect on the effect their slop has on human brains. The poor guy started out making some fairly reasonable criticisms of the MO shidduch system.
I tried to engage with him normally yesterday and discussed his article and he responded by saying he is not a Zionist and he'd already explained himself and when I went back later I had been notified of a 100-year ban.
He's a conundrum wrapped in an enigma with a seething prickly exterior. I actually made a rare substack post discussing it as it was so surreal and it combined with an experience of being ganged up on in a yeshiva chat room after noticing them calling Menachem begin Netanyahu Ben giver and others traitors continuously and deflecting an obfuscating when I brought up relevant points. My daughter was at the sister seminary of the one that burned and was at the seminary while it burned and the fire department did not show up and a dude with a hacksaw was the rescue crew along with an Arab worker who happened to know where the sheetrock wall could be kicked in and I was shocked to see what a shit show israel is in the last few years since my daughters were both there on the 7th.
All the sudden everybody's talking about the politics in Minnesota, surreal, on top of bizarre.
I didn't see the argument you're referring to, but as a general matter, I think a lot of frum people who adopt views which most people would classify as Zionist (eg Zilberman) resist the label because the 'tziyonim' they heard about in their youth were uniformly bad people who cut off yemeni children's payos. (To be clear, I'm not mocking such people. I think they sincerely believe they've recovered some pre-Herzlian ahavas ha'aretz. And for all I know, maybe they have. But it tends to strike the casual observer as semantic games.)
This is how it goes with Anglo immigrant radicalization:
Stage 1: Zionism YES! עם ישראל חי. Most moral army!!!
Stage 2: OK, so the LEFT WING SOCIALIST Zionists were bad, but that was the past, Right Wing Zionism is good. Build Settlements!
Stage 3: OK, so the Right Wing Zionists are also bad because they won't let us build gorillion settlements, but Religious Zionism is for real.
Stage 4: Mainstream Religious Zionism is FAKE, and MAMLACHTI and doesn't put the Torah first, but we have real Kahanist Zionism.
Stage 5: Kahanist Zionism is fake and gay, and run by feds, but there are these five guys I know in shack in the Shomron, who aside from doing a lot of weed are really great guys.
Stage 6: They suck too and are Erev Rav. The only real Jews are multiply divorced schizos who read my newsletter. But we should still kill all the Arabs with nukes.
I know this because I got to 5 myself and felt the pull of 6. The other option is admitting that Zionism was a project with upsides and downsides and, given the range of possible outcomes, turned out a lot less bad than it might have, and we should probably take the limited W and not get ourselves all killed.
It looks like the conclusion was dropped from your edit?
I thought I saved the link but there's an edited document released by the Israeli government alluding to an outside player with knowledge of the plans before the 7th but it's blacked out there were two fellows in confinement one held much harsher than the other... Attempting to get documents to Netanyahu...
Lots of stuff left out here, the supreme Court didn't allow reprisal defenses until 8:00 the evening of the 7th, maybe the conclusion will post or I missed the point
I'll make one final comment as food for thought, and then I'll leave you to your fun and games.
For the last 15 months the establishment made preposterous claims about how October 7 could have happened. It was a surprise. It was a miscalculation. Iran hacked and disabled the cameras by the border (as if that enough wouldn't have warranted an emergency response). It was an intelligence failure. It was a perfect storm of perfectly understandable, well-intentioned mistakes and bad fortune. You bought all the BS and mocked those who didn't.
Now it's come out that they knew there was a very strong likelihood that a major attack with hostage-taking was imminent. And they didn't take decisive action to prevent it. So they were lying for the last 15 months, they knew they were lying for the last 15 months, and you should eat a lot of humble pie for believing the BS.
But what do you do instead? You double down yet again! You believe the current, even more preposterous BS. They didn't know with CERTAINTY that this major attack and hostage-taking was going to happen. Maybe it was something more benign. Even so, they had a very good reason not to prevent it. Some vital intelligence source would have been compromised if they prevented the October 7 massacre. No matter that there was plenty of warnings for months before October 7, and especially in the days leading up to October 7, that would have justified decisive action and covered for any "vital intelligence source". No matter that the slaughter was being broadcast online in real time for hours and hours while the IDF was AWOL.
The criminals and liars (the "experts") now claim that they had a very plausible, justifiable reason not to prevent October 7 (the greater good), and you buy that BS too. You double down on trusting them, double down on mocking people like me, and reserve your sanctimonious outrage only for haredim.
You keep doubling down, you would do it again, and you still think you have the intellectual and moral high ground.
At some point you share responsibility for the many thousands of slave soldiers who were maimed and killed for nothing.
This is your thread, so I'll leave you with that, and you can have the last word. I don't expect it will demonstrate any humility or ability to be introspective, but hopefully any neutral observers will evaluate the merits of both sides and choose wisely.
"For the last 15 months the establishment made preposterous claims about how October 7 could have happened."
No they didn't. They weren't preposterous. Still aren't
"Now it's come out that they knew there was a very strong likelihood that a major attack with hostage-taking was imminent. "
No it hasn't. Read the article again.
"You keep doubling down, you would do it again, and you still think you have the intellectual and moral high ground."
I don't claim any high ground. I do think my understanding of events is closer to what actually happened than yours is. And I think you're seeing all sorts of dragons which aren't there. Zeh ha-kol.
"hopefully any neutral observers will evaluate the merits of both sides and choose wisely."
Ditto. Glad we agree on something.
There's nothing intellectual about bending over backwards to argue that the same regime that kidnapped and trafficked Yemenite babies from hospitals and told the parents they were dead, and conducted horrific Mengele-like medical experiments on Moroccan babies, and murdered the rabbi who exposed it, and denied it all for decades, and continues to cover up most of it, and made sure no one was ever brought to justice to this very day -- all of which is a "conspiracy" that involved numerous people -- wouldn't collaborate on other atrocities against their own people, for whatever purposes suit them.
There's nothing intellectual about demanding impossible levels of "evidence" for this, and mocking people who believe this, even though it explains everything that happened far more smoothly than all the gymnastics you engage in.
There's nothing intellectual about denying this as even a reasonable possibility, with silly arguments that a specific smoke-filled room needs to be provided (as if even THAT would convince you).
Meanwhile, upwards of 20,000 idealistic Jewish fighters were maimed and killed for nothing, and anyone with half a brain warned that would happen from day one (including yours truly), and still you explain it all away as a series of reasonable calculations, mistakes that intellectuals need to explain away, and misfortune.
There's nothing intellectual about using your intelligence to outsmart yourself, deny reality staring you in the face, and continue being a sucker, while pretending to be the smart one in the room.
Everyone who can reasonably be assumed to have known about October 7 and who did not take appropriate actions should have been rounded up and arrested immediately. Instead they were all allowed to lead Jews into death traps for nothing, while directing the public to unleash their anger and frustration at yeshiva students instead. And all the "intellectuals" took the bait.
"There's nothing intellectual about bending over backwards to argue that the same regime that kidnapped and trafficked Yemenite babies from hospitals and told the parents they were dead, and conducted horrific Mengele-like medical experiments on Moroccan babies, and murdered the rabbi who exposed it, and denied it all for decades, and continues to cover up most of it, and made sure no one was ever brought to justice to this very day -- all of which is a "conspiracy" that involved numerous people -- wouldn't collaborate on other atrocities against their own people, for whatever purposes suit them."
It's not the 'same regime.' And the allegations about the experiments were revealed *in a Knesset committee.*
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40342143
"last year the government of Benjamin Netanyahu decided to open up most of the archives of the public inquiries and put them online.
Netanyahu said this marked a new era of transparency and would "right an historic wrong".
Last week it led to shocking revelations in a Knesset committee about medical experiments on Yemenite children. Testimony given under oath at one of the earlier inquiries revealed that four undernourished babies died after being given an experimental protein injection, and that many children died as a result of medical negligence."
Of course it's the same regime. They cover for each other. Even your cherry-picked source notes that only "most" of the archives were opened. Not the really juicy stuff. No one was implicated or brought to justice.
The few small crumbs of truth they are forced to let out after decades of it essentially being public knowledge only underscore how much they are really hiding and how monstrous they are. But, by all means, keep believing their every lie and rationalization.
What do you think of Chananya Weissmans theories?
https://open.substack.com/pub/chananyaweissman/p/the-hostage-deal-psy-op?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
Just a sample link, I imagine he elaborates more elsewhere.
A far as I can tell, he doesn't really have an actual theory. Putting words in scare-quotes isn't an argument.
It's similar to the covid bio-weapon conspiracy theories, which he also mentions in that post. My sense is that the same group of people who believe that Covid was intentionally designed and deliberately released, also believe that Oct 7th was an inside job, etc. Depending on their age, 9-11 and JFK too. It's basically taking Q-anon and being megayer it. I'm a sheeple, I guess.
(I had a similar exchange re covid with Baruch Hasofer: https://substack.com/@postkahanism/note/c-81272933?utm_source=activity_item )
https://open.substack.com/pub/chananyaweissman/p/hostage-reality-tv-and-reality-deniers?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
Wild.
The "theory", which is actually a historical fact that we have no reason to believe is unchanged today, is that the faux-Jewish state of Israel is run by Hebrew-speaking Nazis and other assorted gangsters who collaborate with our external enemies to enslave and destroy us spiritually and physically. Mock it if it makes you feel better about yourself and your lifetime of harboring the wrong beliefs. You were dead wrong about Covid, too, and should really be more humble and contemplative. Some people learn the hard way, and some people never learn at all. 80% died during the plague of darkness.
Where are these smoke-filled rooms located? How does he know about them? And why do they need to plot in secret? Who are they afraid of?
"But sometimes it's more obvious that it really is a malicious plot."
Could be. But you need some evidence of actual malicious behavior. He seems to think that the hostages are crisis actors because after finally being released from underground hell after 15 months they looked....happy. https://chananyaweissman.substack.com/p/hostage-theatre-and-setting-up-the#:~:text=On%20that%20note%2C%20none%20of%20the%20female%20lookouts%20who%20were%20just%20released%20in%20a%20theatrical%20production%20seem%20at%20all%20upset%20that%20the%20IDF%20ignored%20their%20warnings%20on%20October%207%2C%20allowing%20their%20friends%20to%20be%20slaughtered%20and%20them%20to%20be%20put%20through%20hell%20for%20the%20last%2015%20months%20in%20captivity.%20Remarkable. Because any normal person who just got reunited with their parents would have run to substack or made a youtube video.
This is not evidence of 'connecting dots.' It's jut Alex Jones' infowars nuttery https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/mar/26/alex-jones-sandy-hook-shooting-documentary adapted for a frum audience.
"They don't really plot in secret - for example, https://netzachyisrael.substack.com/cp/154870339 "
You realize that trying to convince frum families to only have 5 kids isn't anything like coordinating a pogrom with mass rape and all, right? One really isn't evidence of the other.
The hubris is all over threads like these, the faux-intellectual peasants bending over backwards to defend their oppressors and mocking those who challenge the official narratives of corrupt, pathological liars. No amount of "data" or "evidence" will ever convince them, because they are really just playing a primitive ego-driven game, the same tired game they always play, while acting as if their endless skepticism no matter what makes them the smart, responsible one in the room.
Funny how that skepticism is never directed inward, and they never get tired of being wrong, no matter the consequences.
"Funny how that skepticism is never directed inward,"
Not my fault. Every time I try to direct my skepticism inwards, my covid-vaccine-implanted-microchip starts beeping like crazy.
Chananya Weissman is a reductio ad absurdum of a Zionist. Every time his version of Zionism is shown to have no relation to reality, he comes out with an even more delirium-brained version. It's very sad, and people in online Kahanist circles should really reflect on the effect their slop has on human brains. The poor guy started out making some fairly reasonable criticisms of the MO shidduch system.
I tried to engage with him normally yesterday and discussed his article and he responded by saying he is not a Zionist and he'd already explained himself and when I went back later I had been notified of a 100-year ban.
He's a conundrum wrapped in an enigma with a seething prickly exterior. I actually made a rare substack post discussing it as it was so surreal and it combined with an experience of being ganged up on in a yeshiva chat room after noticing them calling Menachem begin Netanyahu Ben giver and others traitors continuously and deflecting an obfuscating when I brought up relevant points. My daughter was at the sister seminary of the one that burned and was at the seminary while it burned and the fire department did not show up and a dude with a hacksaw was the rescue crew along with an Arab worker who happened to know where the sheetrock wall could be kicked in and I was shocked to see what a shit show israel is in the last few years since my daughters were both there on the 7th.
All the sudden everybody's talking about the politics in Minnesota, surreal, on top of bizarre.
"he responded by saying he is not a Zionist"
I didn't see the argument you're referring to, but as a general matter, I think a lot of frum people who adopt views which most people would classify as Zionist (eg Zilberman) resist the label because the 'tziyonim' they heard about in their youth were uniformly bad people who cut off yemeni children's payos. (To be clear, I'm not mocking such people. I think they sincerely believe they've recovered some pre-Herzlian ahavas ha'aretz. And for all I know, maybe they have. But it tends to strike the casual observer as semantic games.)
Divisive nahrshkeit
If you look at yesterday's post by him unless he was able to delete my comments I think it is there
can you delete comments made by others? I know he was able to ban others
You forgot about unleashing obscenities upon me when I simply stated I wasn't interested in going around in circles.
Sensitestytivity
This is how it goes with Anglo immigrant radicalization:
Stage 1: Zionism YES! עם ישראל חי. Most moral army!!!
Stage 2: OK, so the LEFT WING SOCIALIST Zionists were bad, but that was the past, Right Wing Zionism is good. Build Settlements!
Stage 3: OK, so the Right Wing Zionists are also bad because they won't let us build gorillion settlements, but Religious Zionism is for real.
Stage 4: Mainstream Religious Zionism is FAKE, and MAMLACHTI and doesn't put the Torah first, but we have real Kahanist Zionism.
Stage 5: Kahanist Zionism is fake and gay, and run by feds, but there are these five guys I know in shack in the Shomron, who aside from doing a lot of weed are really great guys.
Stage 6: They suck too and are Erev Rav. The only real Jews are multiply divorced schizos who read my newsletter. But we should still kill all the Arabs with nukes.
I know this because I got to 5 myself and felt the pull of 6. The other option is admitting that Zionism was a project with upsides and downsides and, given the range of possible outcomes, turned out a lot less bad than it might have, and we should probably take the limited W and not get ourselves all killed.
According to my sources, the only thing needed to accomplish complete and total victory on all fronts is unlimited tanks blasting this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP13BBVUUYQ
No, and it is fair to demand that if I ever devote some significant amount of time to criticizing him, that I should read the book first.
You're wasting your time with these intellectually dishonest losers.
Getting sucked into endless, winding, pointless arguments with intellectually dishonest people is a waste of time.
It looks like the conclusion was dropped from your edit?
I thought I saved the link but there's an edited document released by the Israeli government alluding to an outside player with knowledge of the plans before the 7th but it's blacked out there were two fellows in confinement one held much harsher than the other... Attempting to get documents to Netanyahu...
Lots of stuff left out here, the supreme Court didn't allow reprisal defenses until 8:00 the evening of the 7th, maybe the conclusion will post or I missed the point
I didn't edit the post. (At least, not that I'm aware of....)
It appeared now.
I replied to another about Mr Weissman confounding me and rudely being prickly over I don't know what yesterday and banning me for 100 years.
I actually did a sub stack on the remarkably disturbing irrational non-objective scapegoating I felt, drained me emotionally and exhausted me.
Jewish unity is the punchline to my favorite Jewish joke 😳